Zeno Clash 2 suggestions, 'Adrenaline'? Options

[LTK]

Maybe it's a bit early to start thinking about what we want from Zeno Clash 2, because I was under the impression that the developers aren't sure about the whole thing either. But it could also be a good moment to pitch ideas!

So, I had this idea for a feature to be implemented, called 'adrenaline'. It's a commonly used feature in games, one I can think of is Unreal Tournament where you pick up pills, and when collected 100 you can use key combinations to get abilities such as speed or regeneration. Other games use it to enter a state of heightened reflexes, so that the word slows down, but I think the slow-mo thing is a bit overdone.

This is something I would like to see in Zeno Clash 2, something like a temporary superstate where you attack faster and/or stronger, or have hints as to what your opponent's next move is. This can be achieved by continuous attacking where some moves give a higher adrenaline boost than others. What do you think, players/devs?

There is one more thing I'd like to suggest: If you're planning on adding a level or skill system, be very careful that it doesn't overpower your character near the end of the game. In my experience, this happens to a lot of RPGs where you can level up or upgrade skills, and it gets really boring when you can take an enemy down with a headshot every single time without inaccuracy or recoil. Okay, not exactly applicable to ZC, but still.

Comments and additional ideas welcome!

[Lord Feloric...]

My Lord would not support this "adrenaline" feature. He found that after landing several successful blows he would generate his own adrenaline which would translate into insane combos. In other words, an added adrenaline feature is unnecessary, the players can generate their own adrenaline.

[Zero_Ctrl]

Did you know how the way to reply to people is annoying?
Anyway, I do agree with you.

[nefarious]

I must say that I am quite looking forwards to the sequel, zc1 was quite a bit of fun and a breath of fresh air, if a little short campaign wise.
I do have a few suggestions, these simply being based on my own opinions

Gameplay wise, there are one or two tweaks I would make.
Firstly, I found it really irritating, that once a battle scene was through, you would basically be shown some cutscene style narrative, which would lead you up to the next part of the game, next area/ memory etc. I was not a big fan of this; whilst I think it is nice to get a good ol' cutscene now and again, I much prefer it if most of the story unravels whilst I am in control, al la half life. Even if it is something as simple as going back through that door I came out of, to dumb that thugs body to get a password, gives you that extra sense of being in control of Ghat, even being Ghat. Basically, a greater level of control of your character would be nice.

Another aspect to this style of play which had me replaying half life for hours, was the level to which you could interact with npc's. Trying to coax alyx to say something interesting or funny was quite fun, especially when she came out with some of her one liners. i think it would be good, if the likes of deadra or some of the harmless bystanders in zenozoic, would offer some tips, or say hello, or perhaps tell you to move along, tossing a few of the lovely native insults into the mix.

I do not think the combat itself has many problems, I think that that was probably the best executed part of the whole game.
I would like to see some more story line unfold, perhaps with a larger scope than family in fighting, as well as some more character development for Ghat, deadra and the lovely Rimat.
Finally, i would like to see WAY more emphasis placed on the campaign section of the game, as in length wise and depth of story line. I want to hear more about Halstedom culture, history, technology etc, as well as seeing some of the citizens, in particular the not "out to get you" variety
I'll have to think a bit more, if you would like to hear more suggestions, I'm all out!

[RyuRanX]

You could think in make a level design like Hexen or Turok, with a "main level" that opens portals for another levels, and in each level you have to find 3 hidden keys (or something else) to open another part of the main level and access more levels to get more keys and open another part of the main level, accessing more portals to another levels, getting more keys and opening the final part of the main level.

The player doesn't need to collect all keys, only if he/she wants to unlock the "real" final level.

That would be just perfect for me: Zeno Clash combat system + Zeno Clash visual design + exploration + secrets + old-school level design = Perfection!

[Draken]

What I would like to see :

- More enemies. Especially similar to the way that ghat sister with the chinese hat is done... her design is very nice in how it looks like something out of an anime, yet very sharp and unique in the way the legs are done, and also the vibrant colors and her face and HAIR. I can't stop looking at her face expressions, and the hair looks so good! almost natural. The guy who did that design should definitely work on more of them, and smoke the same thing while doing so if possible.

- More content, longer story. 5 hours is nice, around 15 would be more like it. (Unless you do something like half life 2 episodes, around 3 hours of gameplay at 9.99$ episodes sounds good too.)

- Less... how can I say this... basic/rudimentary/fill-up creatures like the big birds that spit poison. That second level where you are on the road and those birds attack on the side felt like a fill up level to me, and somewhat felt out of place in this game.

- More control over grenades. I wish I can do a quick release to throw them near me, or hold the mouse a bit to throw them far. Most of the time enemies are close and the grenade goes way too far.

- More strange weapons. Maybe some "one use" weapons that would break, like chairs, random objects laying on the ground, or dead small creatures like chickens...

- The ability to throw sand into your opponent eyes. That blind headhunter guy used it on me, and I thought hey why can't I do the same?

[Guest_blue demon_*]

I would love a bit more freedom to roam around. Some roofs to get on and jump off would be cool especially in the fights. doesn't have to be like Far Cry. I wanted to jump on rocks and stuff. Especially when I ws fighting the Hunter on the beach, I wanted to scramble up the fins of the whales.

The kicking system needs to improve. I would love to see some jumping kicks and ariel kicks. Just maybe a thrusting kick, the 'give 'em the boot when he's down kick' and some jumping/spinning kick. I wouldn't want anything fancy as I don't wanna play street fighter. I still want that 'brawl' feeling.

Maybe a headbutt!!! the mechanic does it.

I didn't like the way I would fight the same guys again and again...It was cool in a way to have the brothers and sisters hunting you down but some of the other charcters appearing again was a bit odd, like the mechanic...especially as I thought I had killed them...I guess I just KOed them.

I agree about the one use weapons...maybe pick up items and use them, not evrything but maybe chairs or a pieces of wood...Or cups and throw them. As an earlier poster said, throwing sand, the NPCs throw stones, that would be nice.

I felt the crossbow could take more ammo....hard to say, cos it does make you brawl, but I think 3 shots would be nicer. In the brawls I found I could take 2 shots before being rushed, a thrid wuold be cool for multiple opponents.

[Guest_blue demon_*]

A tiny amount of RPG would cool...some form of levelling up. Nothing crazy as an above poster mentioned, but maybe get some points along the way that you can improve health, speed, power, stamina, or even unlock new skills...

But not so that would dominate the game and you can get 'knock out skill: LEVEL 2000000' and just KO everything with one punch.

[udm]

I would like to see more emergent gameplay. There are many ways I can see this being achieved. One, the level up system that has been discussed about before, to allow for different kinds of "specialties" in combat. For example, players who like to "turtle" can put points into their stamina and block. Players who just want to beat the crap out of their enemies and absorb damage can put points into HP and damage. And of course, some sort of specialization in the kind of attack used, like focusing on kicks as opposed to punches.

Another way is to have some new game modes that call for different strategies everytime you start up. I personally enjoy the Pit levels more than Tower challenges because the Pit has a broader range of tactics to use against your enemies. For example, do you decide to collapse the lower levels to kill your enemies, or save the skull bomb for later use? I would like to see some sort of gauntlet level with more randomized effects, like random collapsing floors or falling boulders, or a kind of survival mode where you have to keep progressing in order to gain more points, but the game doesn't end until you die. Something that encourages players to think on the fly, offering unpredictable situations.

[LTK]

udm gave me an idea: It would indeed be nice if the environment could be interacted with more during fighting. In the game, there were no objects in the world that could help or harm you in defeating your enemies, except for the big round boulders that Gabel would bump into occasionally, and those were pretty lame. If there were certain objects in the world besides the conventional* weapons that could be thrown, broken, or otherwise used by the player (a shield?), and maybe traps or other hazards for you or the enemy to fall prey to. I think that would add some flavour to the combat.

* Although there aren't actually any weapons you could call 'conventional' in this game

But leveling up? No. I have yet to see a game that handles this system well. If you could spend skill points gained by levels on things like health, stamina or power, there is always the problem of overpowering. Put all of your points in health, and no one will be able to kill you. Put all of your points in power, and no one will be able to resist.

I like the idea of skill specialities better. This way you can manage your move set to fit your own playstyle. You could choose to learn moves like a special deflect that grabs the enemy when he attacks, or a special dodge that floors the enemy when successful, or a headbutt if you like to play it rough. With only a limited number of moves to choose, you can choose your own strategy while still keeping the combat balanced.

...Hm, maybe I should stop trying to tell the ACE Team how to do their job. This brainstorming is just too much fun!

[Draken]

But leveling up? No. I have yet to see a game that handles this system well. If you could spend skill points gained by levels on things like health, stamina or power, there is always the problem of overpowering. Put all of your points in health, and no one will be able to kill you. Put all of your points in power, and no one will be able to resist.

The game could scale enemies difficulty according to the evolution of the player. It has been proven to work in good RPG games like morrowind, oblivion, and Fallout 3.

[LTK]

The game could scale enemies difficulty according to the evolution of the player. It has been proven to work in good RPG games like morrowind, oblivion, and Fallout 3.

Says who? I've done Fallout 3 and it's an especially bad example on how to build a skill/combat system for the reasons I gave before. Even so, if you want to make the enemies tougher each time you level up there won't be any essential change since the balance stays the same anyway.

[Draken]

Says who? I've done Fallout 3 and it's an especially bad example on how to build a skill/combat system for the reasons I gave before. Even so, if you want to make the enemies tougher each time you level up there won't be any essential change since the balance stays the same anyway.

... you fail to see the complexity of those systems.

Evolving your characters does not simply mean increasing his health or damage +1... we are not in the 80s anymore. Evolving means you get access to new powers, moves, and possibilities. The same thing holds true for the enemy creatures, they can make different attacks (depending on difficulty) and even their AI can be scaled and adapted.

You can see this in Fallout and Oblivion... Enemies get smarter and even surprise you sometimes.

[LTK]

... you fail to see the complexity of those systems.

Evolving your characters does not simply mean increasing his health or damage +1... we are not in the 80s anymore. Evolving means you get access to new powers, moves, and possibilities. The same thing holds true for the enemy creatures, they can make different attacks (depending on difficulty) and even their AI can be scaled and adapted.

You can see this in Fallout and Oblivion... Enemies get smarter and even surprise you sometimes.

I haven't played Bethesda's other games, but I noticed nothing of this sort happening in Fallout 3. I expect it's different with the more traditional RPGs, where there is less focus on first-person combat.

[Draken]

I haven't played Bethesda's other games, but I noticed nothing of this sort happening in Fallout 3. I expect it's different with the more traditional RPGs, where there is less focus on first-person combat.

Oh sorry I thought you did. (You should really play Oblivion at least, you are missing out.)

When you have a linear game with a linear progression, it is somewhat easy to balance enemies according to the strength the player is supposed to have when he reaches certain points. But in open exploration RPGs, if the enemies are static the fights become either too easy or too hard (depending on if you visit those places early or late in the game)... This is why dynamic enemies became necessary in this kind of games.

In oblivion there was "static" enemies, that did not change. Like bosses and special creatures meant to stop you from accessing certain areas until you are strong enough. But most of the enemies were dynamic, meaning they adapt their strength and abilities to the level of your character.

Sometimes it was the enemies themselves that are different depending on your strength... Like the Daedra protecting the temples. You can get your basic scamps at lower levels, and start seeing atronach and even daedra humanoids when your level get higher. Or in the wilderness you see wolves, and later stronger wolves, lions, and even bears, then elementals.

In Fallout 3 the same system exist... but it is more subtle. The AI of enemies adapt, so it is not as apparent as creature change. But you still can notice how at lower levels you see a lot of Molerats, and at higher levels you start seeing a lot of Deathclaw and similar nasty creatures. Or how you see basic ghouls, then suddenly at higher levels you start seeing the glowing ones (radioactive and more dangerous ghouls), or scorpions then giant scorpions, then bigger numbers or both.

[udm]

Says who? I've done Fallout 3 and it's an especially bad example on how to build a skill/combat system for the reasons I gave before. Even so, if you want to make the enemies tougher each time you level up there won't be any essential change since the balance stays the same anyway.

True, especially since it's difficult to properly balance stats in a game where skill matters. Oh well, let's just see how things turn out

I also like the idea on interacting with the environment, but I hope it doesn't get too "scripted" in the sense that there's always a best way to beat the particular level. It's what turned me away from Dark Messiah. OTOH, I should also note that I'm having a lot of fun with Pit, more so than Tower, because of crumbling floors. Nothing's more satisfying than blowing up floors and watching your enemies go down with it

To add on to the list of ideas, I'd also like to see better AI when fighting. I think the elbow bash is too effective as enemies seldom block it. When you dash towards them, they should be anticipating the elbow attack already, and go into block mode more often.

Also, just a personal bias: to remove the uppercut exploit in the next game

LTK's right, it's tons of fun brainstorming heheh

[Guest_BliggyWiggy_*]

I definitely read somewhere they were thinking about doing multiple characters, does anyone else completely disagree with this idea? I think they should stick with their protagonist, it makes you feel as if your him (with the combat design). I also completely disagree with leveling up. That is artificial filler (beat so and so and then fight so and so until I am level two so I can fight so and so blah blah blah.)

Ideas I do have would be to keep linear parts to the game. I have faith in Ace Team, but way to often games that come out "open-ended" leave me feeling as if level design has to be put on the backburner to support a completely free-roaming environment. If they can pull it off well (which is remarkably hard to do) it will be one of the first to combine perfect level design in a free-roam universe.

I also would suggest more 'temporary' weapons like the hammer. What about spiked gloves that keep hand to hand combat the same, but wear down after a while. Also, making the guns a little stronger wouldnt hurt, as long as they developed an ammunition type style of gameplay. They also definitely need to fix the pick up items button, during fights I find it incredibly hard to actually pick up things when I need to (I might just suck).

Pretty much, most important, is developing and adding to the combat engine and creating worthwhile, unique fights. More bosses with unique fighting styles would be a plus. I honestly would be completely happy with another linear, semi-short game that had a lot more unique enemies with equally unique A.I. I will say, fighting your sister in the woods was amazing. Her spin kick knocked me on my butt so many times when I was trying to beat the game without using weapons. Also, adding new moves is a necessity. It wouldn't be too hard to have more than the couple combos this game offers, and include jumping as well.

All I can say is, I don't want a whole lot. I would be (and I believe many others would agree) completely happy with more of the same, as long as combat was significantly more engaging and battles were more unique (I agree with a few reviewers that said the game almost became repetitive, and it was a good thing it ended short). If you are going for a longer game, it is most important you focus most of your time and energy on improving what the player is going to be doing throughout most of the game (if it plays similar to the first) and that is fighting.

[Guest_Guest_*]

I think it would be good with a jumping system for small cool scenes where you jump from roof to roof, but i dont think you should make a classic first person jumping system. Try looking at the Zelda Ocarina of Time jumping system. I think it would fit in that you jump when you run of the edge automatic course i fear a normal system will make to much bunny jumping if a enemy aim at you with a gun plus you can save a jumping button.

[Guest_Guest_Galdi_*_*]

IMO Fallout 3 and oblivion were horrible games (I really liked morrowind though and fallout 1 and 2 are one of the best RPG's out there). The level scaling (especially in oblivion), was terrible. it seemed to me as if leveling up was playing against me...

Well, anyway, that's just my opinion.

More to the point now. I would like to see some more "uniqueness" in the characters. Don't get me wrong; the visual style for all of them is great and they usually have great voices too. What I mean is that, for example, everytime I strong-punch an opponent (unless it's a heavy of course), he'll fly away. Maybe you could implement some enemies that just don't fall down that easily (or don't at all... The hunter could fall on his hands and jump up again inmediately), some that block your kicks when thei're lying, some more bulky guys which don't get pushed when other characters fly on them, others that are very fast at running, some others with massive HP or some insane damage dealers etc. This would give the game a little more diversity since the player would contiously fight some opponets differently. It would also give the (not sure if they're even coming) specializations a bit more sense.

I also liked the idea some guys gave already... Using random items, like chairs, jugs, sticks, for fighting. But I do suggest to add them very carefully, as this might bring huge changes to the game in general.

A couple of new "real" weapons would be nice too, but not necesarry at all.

Leveling up or skill progression sounds really good. Once again, I hope that it'll be implemented with caution.

New fighting possiblities. I liked Zeno Clash for being a simple yet very intense game. Even though I still enjoy deflecting hits, dodging and striking back, uppercutting, etc, I would like to see some more possibilities... Maybe just even for the looks sake. For example, whenever an enemy is stunned the player can choose to either uppercut him (normal damage, more or less fast hit), elbow-bash him to the ground (high damage, more or less fast hit, can't hit other enemies), or maybe even kick him to the side (high damage, can hit others, slow attack). Dodging downwards to give an uppercut from below / kick, special attacks that you can unlock, etc.

One thing I really liked about Zeno clash was that it wasn't bloody but it was still very brutal and rough. That's why I wouldn't like the game turned into a "glamorous fighter" or something like that. I wouldn't want Ghat to learn moves like "Dragon punch of flaming destiny" or seeing him throw fireballs or making whirlwind-kicks which summon flames around you... So new moves would be great but careful with the style, I'd say.

Heavy opponets could be fought with new weapons or they could be given new moves. IMO they also need a damage buff.

That's all I can think of right now.

Good luck in the making

[Andres Bordeu]

Thanks for the feedback! The combat system is going to get beefed up, so I guess we will develop some features similar to the ones you are describing.